October 31, 2009
Perry Mann: Capitalism unchecked will destroy its own means

CHARLESTON, W.Va. -- In Tucker County for centuries there grew a white oak. Its girth reached whatever it takes to encompass a diameter of 13 feet. In 1913 this miracle of nature, more wonderful than a cathedral or a trade tower, was felled by lean mountaineers with axes and crosscut saws.

The tree produced enough lumber to fill a train. The oak lumber left the state and became the floors and doors of some palatial residence far away from Tucker County. Those lean mountaineers received for their labor only enough wages to keep their skinny bodies alive. And all this state had left of the tree was the stump and brush piles and the absence of a forest giant that would take half a millennium to replace. The profits left the state with the lumber.

And the story is similar for coal and coal miners, except that after years of unconscionable exploitation of miners by northern capitalists, miners organized a union; and with John L. Lewis' leadership and FDR's blessing, the union forced capital to pay a decent wage and generally give miners benefits that decency demanded.

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    Posted By: SamCogar (7:24am 11-07-2009)
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    An economy based on competition to consume resources will ultimately fail.

    There is not and never has been such an economy.

    All competition to acquire resources is based on and determined by the needs of the ever increasing population within a particular economy.

    Curb and/or decrease said population and said competition decreases accordingly.

    Posted By: SamCogar (7:11am 11-07-2009)
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    You keep referring to the Left being the problem. Can't you admitt that the right also played a role in this.

    Why can’t the Leftists admit from the very beginning that they are the PRIMARY exacerbators of said problem ….. instead of waiting until they can no longer defend their untruths, false accusations, piffle and tripe before they admit they “also played a role”.

    Posted By: MU4WVU2 (8:18pm 11-06-2009)
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    Moth, I doubt that any statement you have made makes any economic sense. Any US dollars you want to divest yourself of, I would be proud to relieve you of the perceived problem. Libs were complaining that the working man's wage didn't keep pace during 4.5 % unemployment for past 8 years. Those deprived days probably look pretty good to a few million people today. There are no guarantees in the free world. You have opportunity and the way you exercise that freedom will determine your level of economic success - probably mental also. Hard, but most people prefer that to any alternative. You can feel sorry for yourself or make the investment necessary to achieve the level you desire. If you think you are defeated, you are. If you see yourself as enslaved, thank goodness there are those who will invest to make the world a better place for those who want more. Thank goodness for those who are greedy enough to want a better stature in life for self and family.

    Posted By: whistleblower (3:33pm 11-06-2009)
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    If you want to assess the credibility of any of these contributors, how about taking a quick glance at the paradigm suggested by Mothman --that we have a lowered standard of living and that we are economic slaves. I am not sure about any of you, but when I look around I see a society overflowing with the indicia of wealth. Cars, cell phones, electricity, cable tv, the internet, modern homes, indoor plumbing, increased life spans, adequate food supply, sophisticated communications and entertainment. Economic slavery? You are free to go live in a campground if you want, I am not stopping you, but anyone who is a slave is one of their own free will. Your inflated claims cheapen your own arguments. Feel free to move to Cuba, I am not stopping you.

    Posted By: Blayne (3:29pm 11-06-2009)
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    Boy, I wish we'd try some unchecked capitalism for a few years and see what happens.

    Posted By: AaronS (12:16am 11-06-2009)
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    How many depressions has the US had in the last 150 years?

    One, that would have likely remained a recession were it not for Smoot Hawley.

    The unregulated market is a failure.

    How can you say that? We've not had an unregulated market in over 100 years and it's taken serious hits since the 30's when Hoover turned a recession into a depression and FDR turned a depression into The Great Depression.

    I think we should return to what our founding fathers desired, allegiance with none, free trade with all.

    Captain-I’m not saying that corporations don’t manipulate the free market as I know they do. But that’s not the fault of capitalism, that’s the fault of the government.

    Truth be told, big government needs big business and the quickest way to reign in big business is to eliminate corporate donations to political candidates and allow private citizens to exercise their 1st amendment rights with their money.

    Posted By: Mothman (11:49am 11-06-2009)
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    An economy based on competition to consume resources will ultimately fail. This is because resources are limited. What happens when oil and coal are gone? Why are we in a race to see how quickly we can deplete non renewable resources? So called "pure capitalism" that is unregulated lacks stablility. How many depressions has the US had in the last 150 years? The unregulated market is a failure. On top of this, our currncy the dollar is no more than scrip. The US has had over 140% inflation since 1974. Inflation is a way to avoid saying that money is losing it's value. We Americans work more hours that any other nation, yet wages have not increased since 1975 due to inflation.
    The capitalists are conducting financial genocide against the people of our world. We are paid worthless money and are manipulated into borrowing to make up for our lowered standard of living. We are poisoned by their pollution. This is economic slavery. Currency reform now.Corporate death penalty now.

    Posted By: whistleblower (9:46am 11-06-2009)
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    Two questions: First: What qualifications does this guy have that compels the Gazette give him print space every couple of months? This guy appears to be 2 years older than my father, who also toiled against racism in Virginia during the 60's, but somehow emerged from the experience without being transformed into a Marxist. Which leads to my second question, if earning a law degree from a Virginia law school is all that is necessary to occupy space on the editorial page, can I make a contribution? At least I would promote economic liberty over the tyranny of the masses.

    Posted By: abb007 (9:06am 11-06-2009)
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    This is one of the best op-eds I have read in a long time. Well done, Mr. Mann.

    Posted By: CAPTAINJOE (7:34am 11-06-2009)
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    4GOD, Well said...

    AaronS, You keep referring to the Left being the problem. Can't you admitt that the right also played a role in this. You'll find Capitalists in both the Republican and Democratic parties. Again, "Take them out of the governments business" and let Capitalism, Government and the free market system work the way it was envisioned.

    Posted By: SamCogar (6:24am 11-06-2009)
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    If the left leaning “troughfeeders” were not bribing, extorting, demanding and threatening Politicians to provide them higher wages, entitlements and funding or they will refuse to work and/or make sure they don’t get elected or re- elected ……. then the Politicians wouldn’t have to be extorting more and more money from the businesses and corporations ……. and the businesses and corporations wouldn’t have to be bribing and lobbying those same Politicians not to be extorting more money from them.

    The non-productive “troughfeeders”now have, via their extortion practices, far better and greater wages and entitlements with far less responsibilities and actual work hours than the producers that are providing said for them. Their unfunded liabilities now far exceeds the producers ability to pay for them. Economic collapse is thus inevitable.

    Posted By: 4GOD (7:42pm 11-05-2009)
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    Lobbyists are supported by industry leaders. Lobbyists and industry leaders apply duress to capitalism through the politicians. They desire industry or business “exceptions” to the rules of supply and demand. Capitalists impacting capitalism; as simple as it gets. They favor industries that impact other industries, is this fair. The focus on specific businesses, giving them privilege over all like competitors, is this fair. This has happened until we now no longer have capitalism; we have discriminatory corporate welfare. Purchased welfare, but still welfare (given support).

    One good thing, we have new laws on the books dealing with corruption. Illegal transactions are becoming very simple to track. Hopefully this will drive the price of doing illegal business much higher. These higher financial requirements are easier to track. Just starting to see some of the results.

    Posted By: AaronS (7:02pm 11-05-2009)
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    I think you’ve got it backwards Capt. It’s not ‘capitalist’ manipulating our system; it is those on the left doing the manipulating.

    And that started about a hundred years ago with Teddy Roosevelt, was kicked into overdrive by FDR and has increased steadily over the past 70 years at a pretty consistent rate by the socialist right.

    Posted By: CAPTAINJOE (6:08pm 11-05-2009)
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    AaronS,"Once again Captain, lobbyist donating to politicians and expecting favors in return is not capitalism run amuck. In fact, it has nothing to do with capitalism. You need to get that part straight first."
    Hummmmmmmmm, So if I have private ownership of the means of production and have many ways to influence our elected officials your saying I can't make more money and pay less taxes to boot? Who then picks up the tab? Plus I can drop health insurance and retirement for my employees with the govermnments help.

    If you had a truly free market system and no government manipulation by these Capitalists we would not be having these problems.

    Your right about this, Capitalism shouldn't have anything to do with
    elected officials, but they do, and its to our detriment.

    Posted By: CAPTAINJOE (5:53pm 11-05-2009)
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    Scholars in the social sciences, including historians, economic sociologists, economists, anthropologists and philosophers have debated over how to define capitalism, however there is little controversy that private ownership of the means of production, creation of goods or services for profit in a market, and prices and wages are elements of capitalism.[3]

    Economists usually put emphasis on the market mechanism, degree of government control over markets (laissez faire), and property rights[4][5], while most political economists emphasize private property, power relations, wage labor, and class.[6] There is a general agreement that capitalism encourages economic growth.[7] The extent to which different markets are "free", as well as the rules determining what may and may not be private property, is a matter of politics and policy and many states have what are termed "mixed economies."[6]

    Posted By: AaronS (11:16am 11-05-2009)
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    Once again Captain, lobbyist donating to politicians and expecting favors in return is not capitalism run amuck. In fact, it has nothing to do with capitalism. You need to get that part straight first.

    Now if you want to discuss campaign finance reform, that's an entirely different subject altogether. Personally, I favor a return to the 1st amendment in which people can do with their money as they please but that's just me.

    What say you?

    As for manipulating the law, you’ll have to explain how that has anything to do with capitalism but for the record, no I don’t favor situations where criminals manipulate the law by suing homeowners because they got hurt in some manner while committing a crime. I think that’s wrong and should be stopped.

    Posted By: CAPTAINJOE (9:08am 11-05-2009)
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    Lobbiests and political contributions (which are legal) are as BIG a problem as the outright political corruption Sam Cogar pointed out.
    Can you not see that if one helps another attain a governmental position that they aren't expecting favors in return?
    Currently lobbiests and political contributors are not against the law. Therefore they can legally have elected officials change verbage in laws to their benefit.
    Thats why I stated "Rulings and laws, do not, by any means, imply they are just. Especially when they are being manipulated by "the few".
    By the way you, did not answer the question "Do you think its ok for the few, to manipulate our laws?"

    Smaller government is good and can be a reality, especially if they do not see lobbiests and are not beholden to political contributors. That way they could vote, on what they feel is the, right thing to do. Thats what our forefathers had in mind when they formed this Republic as they were afraid of a "Pure Democracy".

    Posted By: AaronS (8:23am 11-05-2009)
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    Sorry Captain but politicians accepting bribes have nothing to do with unbridled capitalism. In fact, it's not capitalism at all; it's a violation of the law and as such, should be punished. Any failures to punish the guilty are strictly limited to our government and have nothing to do with capitalism.

    And to think, there are those on the right who want to give MORE control to these very politicians because they believe capitalism is destroying this country.

    It seems to me the best thing for our politicians to do would be to reduce the size and scope of government to what our forefathers desired and to limit their role in our economy to the enumerated oversight role they are granted in the Constitution and allow capitalism to guide our economy.

    Don't you agree!!!!!

    Posted By: CAPTAINJOE (8:20am 11-05-2009)
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    To help save capitalism:
    1. Elected officials need to work together, meet in the middle, and solve the problems.
    2. No more lobbiests.
    3. Need to get a handle on the political contributions. Todays Elections are more about who can raise the most money, than who, is best qualified.
    4. Term limits for all elected officials.
    5. ?
    Otherwise capitalism will destroy itself. Normally a family just wants to be left alone as long as it is getting along and doesn't ask anything at all from its government.. Start taking away from them, and eventually, you'll end up with an uprising.

    Posted By: CAPTAINJOE (7:56am 11-05-2009)
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    Taxpayer, we (all Americans) better start learning to communicate in a civil manner. Work to fix the problem, like famalies do, instead of arguing. A family must take action as they don't have the option of arguing for years about where their next meal is going to come from, or, what the definition of a meal is.
    SamCogar, Yes you seemed to have interpreted what I wrote correctly. Some, cannot see the forrest for the trees, or, to put it a different way, some get into the details before understanding the overall outline on where we would like to end up, or, they just like to argue.
    The ones that like to argue, home in on a word or two in a statement, answer a question with a question, or, change the subject entirely. I like to call that Lawyer speak. :) Thats the easy way out, although in the end the family evntually starves to death.
    We all should be helping to build workable solution?
    So, Whats for supper?

    Posted By: SamCogar (7:51am 11-05-2009)
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    Taxpayer, your last two posts were right on the money, both “winners”.

    But I’m sure they will fall on blind eyes and deaf ears.

    One blames the extreme polarization of the public on ……

    I blame it on ignorance, apathy, rivalry, personal short-term greed, fear, etc. ….. which all of the aforementioned have fostered a complete disassociation between voting for a Politician and the reason Elections are held.

    I mean like, why else, after 80+ years of absolute control of the WV Legislature by the Democrat Party, would so many people keep voting for said Democrats at each Election while at the same time blaming another Party or Corporations for all the things they don’t like about how the State is managed?

    Posted By: SamCogar (6:43am 11-05-2009)
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    However, Capitalism taken to the extreme: (the rich paying our lawmakers to change laws by inserting/deleting verbage to their favor), Hurts the majority! Paying for someone to run for office so they can do your bidding also Hurts the majority! Only an extremeist would think this if fair and that in a nutshell is one reason we are in the shape we are.

    CAPTAINJOE, me thinks you are referring to dishonest and crooked Politicians accepting per say “bribes” …….. and clueless, ignorant and/or gullible voters who vote for said devious intentioned “front men” Politicians ……. but you failed to highlight those two facts.

    Posted By: Taxpayer (10:01pm 11-04-2009)
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    With the possible exception of the Civil War, I don’t think this country has been more polarized. Pick ANY hot button topic: Race, religion, guns, civil unions, environment, taxes, global warming, trade protectionism, unions, abortion, and on and on. Then try to set down with someone right or left of the issue, and play the devils advocate and dare to disagree with them. Then let the games begin…. Name calling, labeling, baiting. It’s sad to watch when you grasp the depths of our divisions and what it means for the future of this great country. ( I will admit it is quite humorous to watch at times.) Pick any network talk show either left or right and watch the shouting matches. For a supposed civilized nation, we sure don’t act like it. Of course this is just my opinion.

    Posted By: Taxpayer (8:28pm 11-04-2009)
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    CaptainJoe, I see flaming posters on the left and the right on every online edition of media I read. I also see it in the work place, sports bars and even at family reunions. I have read several articles on this phenomenon. One blames the extreme polarization of the public on our growing narcissism. Another blames our narrow mindedness on a decline in our social skills and even went as far as blaming the availability of cheap air conditioning 25 yrs ago causing us to close off from each other. Others have sited our 24 hour news cycle and the bombardment of 10 second sound bites and talking points. Whatever caused it, political machines and anyone with an agenda is blasting our airways and print with it. Create a “boogie man” and get the masses all worked up, then press your agenda. It seems to be working… but at what cost.

    Posted By: AaronS (8:18pm 11-04-2009)
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    Do you think its ok for the few, to manipulate our laws? Was I clear enough?

    No. You'll have to specify what laws you're talking about.

    Posted By: CAPTAINJOE (7:43pm 11-04-2009)
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    Yup I definately see what you mean Taxpayer. We're really in deep trouble aren't we?
    AaronS," Sorry Joe, we're not a Democracy, I have nothing against equality so long as you're talking rights and opportunities and not the fruit of my money and you're going to have to explain how capitalism has denied justice and to whom did it deny said justice."
    The only question I see in your statement above, is about denied justice.
    I answered it. If YOU work for a living, You, are picking up the slack for someone else, that had the money or influence to tilt the laws in his/her favor or one that doesn't work at all. Hows that for equality?
    Rulings and laws, do not, by any means, imply they are just. Especially when they are being manipulated by "the few".
    Do you think its ok for the few, to manipulate our laws?
    Was I clear enough?

    Posted By: AaronS (6:54pm 11-04-2009)
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    Sorry Captain, you've went 4God on me as your rambling has become confusing. I have no idea what you're trying to get at with your justice hypothesis, you didn't even address your equality statement and no, we're not a democracy, we're a Constitutional Republic and that's the ONLY accurate way to describe our form of government.

    If you want to clear your head and try to come back with some sort of clear statement, perhaps we can get somewhere. But if you’re just going to continue to ramble, I don’t see any good coming out of it.

    Posted By: CAPTAINJOE (6:14pm 11-04-2009)
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    Taxpayer, Yup that about sums up these comments as well :)
    AaronS,
    Denied justice, hummmmmmmm... If I, Being a rich man, don't abide by the rules, because I have had verbage written into law that excludes me, well then, someone else has to pick up the slack now don't they? Is that justice to you? Not that all rich are bad, would be better to use extreme capitalist.
    Democracy, hummmmmmmm... Technically we are a Republic, By popular usage, however, the word "democracy" has come to mean a form of government in which the government derives its power from the people and is accountable to them for the use of that power. In this sense the United States might accurately be called a democracy

    Posted By: MU4WVU2 (5:16pm 11-04-2009)
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    Sam, re shopping, I do most of it now. I do write bigger checks for each visit now, but I assumed there was no inflation since there were no cost of living increases for SS. But big daddy gonna give us $250. That won't cover two weeks increase in the grocery budget.

    Posted By: AaronS (4:51pm 11-04-2009)
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    AaronS,
    Yes. This is a Democracy. Whats wrong with equality and justice for ALL?

    Sorry Joe, we're not a Democracy, I have nothing against equality so long as you're talking rights and opportunities and not the fruit of my money and you're going to have to explain how capitalism has denied justice and to whom did it deny said justice.

    Think you can handle that?

    Posted By: Taxpayer (3:59pm 11-04-2009)
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    Common sense tells you that too much of ANYTHING is a bad thing...duh

    too much socialism.. very bad (see Stalin and Marx)
    too much unchecked capitalism... very bad (see Wall Street)

    Now I get to beat my dead horse on the polarization of our country...

    The extreme left and extreme right in this country is what is going to be its demise. Its always the same on any political topic. Entrenched lefties and righties. We are paralyzed politically because of rigid viewpoints.

    Posted By: CAPTAINJOE (3:04pm 11-04-2009)
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    AaronS,
    Yes. This is a Democracy. Whats wrong with equality and justice for ALL?
    Rational, Your saying its ok for the rich to change our laws to their advantage and purchase our lawmakers as long as the majority gets some "trickles". I don't think thats what our forefathers had in mind when they exited England so many years ago.

    Posted By: AaronS (2:27pm 11-04-2009)
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    Paying for someone to run for office so they can do your bidding also Hurts the majority!

    Does that mean you're outraged by labor and unions part in purchasing the White House and continued donations to the Democratic party and the apparent paybacks by the current administration CAPTIANJOE???

    Posted By: Rational (1:24pm 11-04-2009)
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    "However, Capitalism taken to the extreme: (the rich paying our lawmakers to change laws by inserting/deleting verbage to their favor), Hurts the majority! Paying for someone to run for office so they can do your bidding also Hurts the majority!"

    Not if "trickle-down economics" works, which I believe it does, when unencumbered by legislation intended to "help" the majority.

    Industry creates jobs - taxation, wealth redistribution, and excessive regulation destroy them.

    Posted By: CAPTAINJOE (12:52am 11-04-2009)
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    I don't believe commenters have stated they are against capitalism.
    However, Capitalism taken to the extreme: (the rich paying our lawmakers to change laws by inserting/deleting verbage to their favor), Hurts the majority! Paying for someone to run for office so they can do your bidding also Hurts the majority!
    Only an extremeist would think this if fair and that in a nutshell is one reason we are in the shape we are.

    Posted By: Taxpayer (9:30am 11-04-2009)
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    That didn't take long... :)

    Posted By: billyjim2 (9:23am 11-04-2009)
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    As a capitalist, I reject this argument as invalid. No where on the planet can a person come from humble beginnings and attain greatness. That is what makes the USA the greatest country on this earth. Point to just ONE socialistic country where the same is possible for anyone, and I will take heed of your theory. Until then, you may sell your ignorant lecture somewhere else, and believe me; no one that knows better is buying it

    Posted By: Taxpayer (8:37am 11-04-2009)
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    Common sense tells you that too much of ANYTHING is a bad thing...duh

    too much socialism.. very bad (see Stalin and Marx)
    too much unchecked capitalism... very bad (see Wall Street)

    Now I get to beat my dead horse on the polarization of our country...

    The extreme left and extreme right in this country is what is going to be its demise. I visit postings in quite a few larger papers. Its always the same on any political topic. Entrenched lefties and righties. We are paralyzed politically because of rigid viewpoints.

    Thank You

    Posted By: rzr2009 (8:18am 11-04-2009)
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    "Capitalism unchecked will destroy its own means"

    Socialism unchecked will destroy millions of people.
    Stalin and Mao proved that.

    Posted By: SamCogar (7:13am 11-04-2009)
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    Smar, why is ther not inflation now?

    MU4WVU2, does your spouse do all the shopping and bill paying …… or what?

    Have you noticed the price of gold lately? Its around $1,100 per 1 oz.

    Posted By: smarbap (11:01pm 11-03-2009)
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    MU4WVU2,

    The simple answer: Fear. Despite the huge recent increases in the M1 Money Supply, the process by which such results in inflation is not instantaneous. It may take years before inflation hits with a vengeance. With so many fearful of an uncertain economic future, individuals are now holding on to more and more of their cash in lieu of making discretionary purchases. Another factor is that the government's "stimulus" spending and "rescuing" of banks is delaying the process for now. But both the actions of individuals and those of government will undoubtedly be short-lived phenomena. When currency begins to lose its value--as is already occurring as evidenced by the rising price of gasoline despite its abundant supply--and when the government can "stimulate" and/or "rescue" no further, WATCH OUT! For it is then when things will get truly interesting. When will this happen? Probably around the end of 2012, which would coincide with the dire Mayan predictions.

    Posted By: MU4WVU2 (8:18pm 11-03-2009)
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    Smar, why is ther not inflation now? Table is set. Definition - too many dollars chasing too few goods. All the borrowing from outside and fed printing press has got to produce excess dollars. Unemployment should restrict production of goods. How is inflation being avoided? Could it possibly be the exporting of money to OPEC? Where is the excess money? Some have suggested TARP funds not released by banks is the controlling element. Is it TARP plus OPEC keeping excess funds out of circulation?

    The economic concept of cause is not hard to comprehend. What is causing the event to not take place is confusing to me.

    When it happens how can 10, 15 or 20% interest rates be good for job growth? Which problem does the govt fight - inflation or unemployment? Either will create havoc for the country and maybe more. Are there worse things than GWB recovery w/o equality in pay? I suspect we are going to find out.

    Posted By: 4GOD (7:58pm 11-03-2009)
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    Aaron I am afraid you are still low. MU, hard to justify unemployment rate to anything. To many variants. You have to know the number of people rolling in, rolling out and in the existing queue. There are also problems with historic comparison due to the fact that the length of unemployment has changed multiple times. May want to go to census and get the historic employment numbers, median and mean income. This would be the better comparison (will have to account for population growth a little).

    Posted By: smarbap (6:50pm 11-03-2009)
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    Actually, Red Dragon 70, the absolute worst economic disaster will leave office at 12:00 Noon on January 20, 2013. In the interim, let us brace ourselves for the inevitable out-of-control inflation to come!

    Posted By: pacaderm (3:14pm 11-03-2009)
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    Read and buy this dribble at your own risk
    Mechanization is bad. Right, I'll just hurl my laptop in the pond and break out the old quill and pen. No, wait, I think Injun smoke signals would be better. Maybe the entire Native Amercian way of life will work. Living in portable tents moving from place to place with my squaw by my side. Hopefully some "foriegn white men" will show up with a horse, so I can ride instead of walk. Squaw still walk though. A lawyer from Hinton, now there is a braniac.
    There is no such thing as unencumbered capitalism. Taxes, regulations, licenses exist for every business on a city, county, state and national level. Do even the libtards buy this drool? Only in the Gazette does this nonsense appear.
    BTW the "poor" in the US have not gotten poorer. Look around you. Now, one thing that the socialists have managed to create is poverty that DEPENDS on government handouts and that my friends is very different from just poverty. That is permanent.

    Posted By: AaronS (2:38pm 11-03-2009)
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    Actually since 2001 we have not had a year below 4.5%. Take into account those working part time, that want to work full time, you can about double the rate. This does not include those that gave up trying to find a job. Seems like we are currently going in the wrong direction.

    By that logic, the current unemployment rate is approaching 20%.

    Posted By: MU4WVU2 (11:52am 11-03-2009)
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    4, why do you double the 4.5 % unemployment to compensate for those who were looking for a job and those who were working part time. There are no logical rules for making such assumptions in a strong economy. The economy was strong and those who wanted work had work available.

    Some were considered "under employed" because they did not have the job they felt they were qualified for. That presents false numbers since everyone cannot be the president of the corporation. You want to introduce assumptions rather than hard numbers. There are some that simply cannot be accounted for: welfare; between jobs; taking time off and other catagories who are not working because of choice.

    In todays bad economy, you have those who are just mentioned and there is no allowance for them. Those underemployed who took anything to survive. Those who cannot find gainful employment. Those whose hour have been cut. All of these groups are out there and not identified in a particular catagory.

    Posted By: Harry Kawasaki (11:21am 11-03-2009)
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    Fannie Mae "is a stockholder-owned corporation chartered by Congress in 1968 as a government-sponsored enterprise (GSE), but founded in 1938 during the Great Depression. The corporation's purpose is to purchase and securitize mortgages in order to ensure that funds are consistently available to the institutions that lend money to home buyers".

    And Freddie Mac was "created in 1970 to expand the secondary market for mortgages in the US. Freddie Mac buys mortgages on the secondary market, pools them, and sells them as mortgage-backed securities to investors on the open market. This secondary mortgage market increases the supply of money available for mortgage lending and increases the money available for new home purchases".

    They are not banks. Period.

    See that last part about "increases the money available for new home purchases"? That's where the 2 links about credit swap defaults and/or OTC derivatives I provided kicks in. And the institutions detailed in the 2 stories ARE banks.

    Posted By: AaronS (10:43am 11-03-2009)
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    Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae are semi quazi-public/private banks set up solely to purchase mortgages from private lenders, thus freeing up much needed capital so they can continue to make home loans. Both are at the heart of the banking industry as far as home loans go. Now you can weasel word and point out that technically, FM/FM are not the banking industry, but without the two, home loans would slow to such a pace that home ownership would become non-existent, thus regulating FM/FM does indeed constitute regulations involving the entire banking industry. While it may not be regulations on the banking industry (FDIC), it affects the banking industry. Bottom line, GWB requested regulations.

    As for the financial crisis, if you’re looking for a cause for the meltdown, start with Jimmy Carter's signature on the Community Reinvestment Act and was made worse by Bill Clinton reducing down payments to 3% (along with down payment assistance) and GWB allowing zero down payments.

    Posted By: Harry Kawasaki (8:21am 11-03-2009)
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    AaronS (7:09pm 11-01-2009)"And whose fault is that? GWB? I guess the fact that he requested stricter regulations for the banking industry on September 11, 2003..."

    Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac are not banks and do not constitute "the banking industry".

    Last year's financial crisis came from credit-default swaps/over the counter derivatives and the deregulation that led to commercial banks and financial banks to merge again.

    Fannie/Freddie needed more oversight, but they were not the cause of the market meltdown.

    Your statement, AaronS, is untrue.

    Posted By: SamCogar (8:04am 11-03-2009)
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    U.S. SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION

    Litigation Release No. 19710 / May 23, 2006

    Accounting and Auditing Enforcement Release No. 2433 / May 23, 2006

    SEC v. Federal National Mortgage Association, Case No. 06-00959 (RBW) (U.S.D.C., D.D.C)

    Fannie Mae to Pay $400 Million Penalty for Accounting Fraud

    SEC and OFHEO Settle Action Against Fannie Mae

    On May 23, 2006, the Commission filed a settled enforcement proceeding charging the Federal National Mortgage Association ("Fannie Mae"), a shareholder-owned government-sponsored enterprise, with fraudulent accounting in violation of the anti-fraud, books and records, internal controls and reporting provisions of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934 …………., Fannie Mae will pay a total civil penalty of $400 million to the U.S. government.

    http://www.sec.gov/litigation/litreleases/2006/lr19710.htm

    Posted By: CAPTAINJOE (8:00am 11-03-2009)
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    Professor Olson of Hemline University School of Law, St. Paul , Minnesota believes the United States is now somewhere between the 'complacency and apathy' phase of Professor Tyler's definition of democracy, with some forty percent of the nation's population already having reached the 'governmental dependency' phase

    Capatalism helped get us to where we are today. Why are we not trying to avoid the known pitfalls of the past.

    "Those who cannot learn from history are doomed to repeat it."
    George Santayana

    Posted By: CAPTAINJOE (7:53am 11-03-2009)
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    Just goes to show that anything carried out to the extreme, will benefit a few, at the expense, of others. Capitalism, without the proper checks and balances is not immune.
    Google: Life Expectancy of Democracy
    'The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history, has been about 200 years'
    'During those 200 years, those nations always progressed through the following sequence:
    1. from bondage to spiritual faith;
    2. from spiritual faith to great courage;
    3. from courage to liberty;
    4. from liberty to abundance;
    5. from abundance to complacency;
    6. from complacency to apathy;
    7. from apathy to dependence;
    8. from dependence back into bondage'

    Posted By: SamCogar (7:52am 11-03-2009)
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    (Harry K), “AaronS, not only have you not proven that inner cities' problems would not be worse without entitlement programs,

    Read it and weep, Harry K, ….. to wit:

    Cabrini-Green – "During the worst years of Cabrini-Green's problems, vandalism increased substantially. Gang members and miscreants covered interior walls with graffiti and damaged doors, windows, and elevators. Rat and cockroach infestations were commonplace, rotting garbage stacked up in clogged trash chutes (it once piled up to the 15th floor), and basic utilities (water, electricity, etc.) often malfunctioned and were left unrepaired. On the exterior, boarded-up windows, burned-out areas of the façade, and pavement instead of green space—all in the name of economizing on maintenance—created an atmosphere of neglect and decay. The high "open galleries" were enclosed with steel fencing the entire height of ..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabrini-Green

    Posted By: 4GOD (6:44am 11-03-2009)
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    Agreed Aaron, many are to blame. This does not allow exclusionary justification for those involved.

    MU here is the unemployment rate history. Actually since 2001 we have not had a year below 4.5%. Take into account those working part time, that want to work full time, you can about double the rate. This does not include those that gave up trying to find a job. Seems like we are currently going in the wrong direction. Another good link below about trying to find a job.
    http://data.bls.gov/PDQ/servlet/SurveyOutputServlet?data_tool=latest_numbers&series_id=LNS14000000

    http://gawker.com/5157945/unemployment-rate-is-70-for-ex+bush-administration-officials

    Posted By: AaronS (9:26pm 11-02-2009)
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    No, Julius88, the "worst economic disaster" left office January 20, 2009 at 11:59 a.m. You can look it up!

    It's not your contention that GWB is alone responsible for the housing meltdown, the bailouts and the current economic conditions, is it Red Dragon.

    Posted By: MU4WVU2 (8:53pm 11-02-2009)
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    Worst economic disaster resulted in 4-4.5% unemployment? There was no limits on spending was the problem during the Bush admin. Contributing factors were bombing and storm. Bombing resulted in funding a war and storm led to uncontrolled spending for any social program for remainder of term.

    Before the tax break for the wealthy becomes an issue, the Clinton tax increases on everyone were removed when Bush tax cuts became law. Bush years did not have revenue problems as it continued to increase. The problem was that expenditures were greater than revenue.

    Posted By: sox (8:47pm 11-02-2009)
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    WOW really the worst ever. Come on Dragon I think your SA education is showing a little (HA HA). I really hope it was a joke. Accross the river we learned about 24 percent unemployment in 1933 and such but hey you said look it up... Not saying times are great but we are far better off than Granpa and Granma was. Again I really hope it was a joke.... We have no clue the times these people saw.

    Posted By: AaronS (8:40pm 11-02-2009)
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    I'm not defending GWB 4, I'm merely stating facts and even posted a link to the story to back up what I said.

    You want to lay the blame on GWB but what you're neglecting is the simple fact that oversight is a constutional repsonsibility given to Congress.

    You want to put equal blame on Congressional Republicans as they held the majority from 1994 until 2006, thats fine so so long as you understand that it wasn't only Republicans. Democrats, as the chart shows, share equal blame.

    http://www.audacityofhypocrisy.com/2008/09/18/all-recipients-of-fannie-mae-and-freddie-mac-campaign-contributions-1989-2008/

    Posted By: Red Dragon 70 (6:42pm 11-02-2009)
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    No, Julius88, the "worst economic disaster" left office January 20, 2009 at 11:59 a.m. You can look it up!

    Posted By: 4GOD (6:35pm 11-02-2009)
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    Julius, why don't you bang the other side while you’re at it? If you are going to discuss the worst economic disaster, can't leave out bush. Give credit where it is due. Bang the current side again while you are at it to please!

    Posted By: 4GOD (6:30pm 11-02-2009)
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    Thursday, August 19, 2004
    An SEC investigation of Freddie had been going on for a long time. They tell Freddie exec’s that civil charges are going to be brought against them.
    The statement:
    An SEC lawsuit would come at a tumultuous time for Freddie Mac, which faces criticism from Congress, the White House and private industry that it and its larger rival, Fannie Mae, have grown so big they pose a threat to the nation's economic stability.

    Notice the White House in the above statement. Executive guidance not to pursue.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13512-2004Aug18.html

    Correction came in 2007 after legal derivation was brought into light.
    http://www.sec.gov/news/press/2007/2007-219.htm

    bush could and should have pursued any time after 2002. He opted not to. Enforcement through a new agency was never his plan. Control was desired to funnel money . He just funneled through HUD instead.

    Aaron, give it up. Absolutely nothing good came from bush.

    Posted By: Julius88 (3:21pm 11-02-2009)
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    Unlike Communism that has given it's citizenry vast opportunity and no class distinctions. Unlike Communism that has ensured individual freedoms of expression and allowed for criticism of their government. Unlike Communism that has taken care of it's workers and not allowed child labor and given full property rights to the people. Please. It's this kind of garbage that has led us to the worst economic disaster that is Barack Hussein Obama. What commune did you get your degree from?

    Posted By: AaronS (1:52pm 11-02-2009)
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    I opened your first link. It's an interesting article that I'll get into more indepth later but that doesnt' change the fact that GWB requested oversight and Barney Fwank and Congress said no.

    The Bush administration today recommended the most significant regulatory overhaul in the housing finance industry since the savings and loan crisis a decade ago.

    Under the plan, disclosed at a Congressional hearing today, a new agency would be created within the Treasury Department to assume supervision of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the government-sponsored companies that are the two largest players in the mortgage lending industry.

    The new agency would have the authority, which now rests with Congress, to set one of the two capital-reserve requirements for the companies.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/11/business/new-agency-proposed-to-oversee-freddie-mac-and-fannie-mae.html?sec=&spon=&pagewanted=print

    Posted By: AaronS (1:42pm 11-02-2009)
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    When you can't make an argument, throw an absurb argument out there like proving a negative.

    There's plenty of information out there on the cause and effects of poverty in inner cities and much of it links entitlement programs and the government will take care of me mentality they create. If you want to read up on it, start here.

    http://www.huduser.org/Periodicals/CITYSCPE/VOL3NUM3/article3.pdf

    As for the javascript, all you have to do is put in in the URL on the tags part of the post. It's not hard.

    Posted By: MU4WVU2 (1:29pm 11-02-2009)
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    Folks, has Mann not finally posed a question that demands an answer? But he should have also posed "Can LIBERALISM go unchecked"?

    Quickly the debate became: mine v yours; Repub v Dem; etc., and we defend our position strongly.
    Can the nation stand for long the way we are going? There have always been the haves and have nots like Mellons, Fords, etc. They produced or sold something. Today we ar in a "service industry" and the secondary people are making $10s-100s millions. More people getting the big bucks and not producing a secondary market.
    Ford required other industries of steel, glass, rubber, petrolum, sales, finance, building. Everyone was working and could buy the product. Finance industry trades a memo and the rewards are extreme and there is no secondary industry.
    Now we come on here and defend what is happening and blame dems, repubs, CEOs, pols, etc., and country is bust.

    Can we not agree that capitalists deserve a reasonable return and there is no free lunch libs?

    Posted By: Harry Kawasaki (11:44am 11-02-2009)
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    AaronS, not only have you not proven that inner cities' problems would not be worse without entitlement programs, you haven't even proven a direct cause and effect between the two.

    Both links work. You have to cut and paste them into the address block. I try to keep the javascripts to a minimum. Sorry. Check 'em out, though, and you'll learn why the conservative spin that Fannie/Freddie were ground zero is wrong.

    Posted By: Engineer1967 (10:01am 11-02-2009)
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    yeah, just like all the bigtime CEO's who "took responsibility" for their profittaking activity and triggered a huge financial meltdown. irresponsibility is anybody's disease. we have to stop pretending it only exists on one side or the other of our growing class division.

    Posted By: AaronS (8:30am 11-02-2009)
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    Again, what would those places look like with no options for feeding children or housing or clothing vouchers?

    I see you can't explain it, huh.

    As for what they would look like if the residents actually worked and were held responsible for their actions? I imagine the citizens wouldn't put up with criminals terrorizing their neighborhoods, vandals destroying their buildings and if they were forced to repair and replace the destruction brought on by entitlement programs, it would be greatly reduced.

    What you don't get is that socialism doesn't work because there is no incentive for the people to take responsibility for their actions. You imply that inner cities would be much worse off without those programs.

    I believe the citizens would rise to the challenge and they would be better off but then I believe that when held accountable and given the incentive of ownership, the best comes out in all people.

    I guess its how you look at things though.

    Posted By: AaronS (8:22am 11-02-2009)
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    No he didn't. He wanted a new bureaucracy to oversee Fannie/Freddie when he should've had the Fed and Treasury clamping down on derivatives:

    First, none of your tiny url's worked. I'm not sure if you messed up posting those or if you're following the lead of our resident communist one citizen and placed the link knowing it wouldn't work as some sort of supposed proof to the tripe you post. Time will tell.

    As for your comment above, who do you think was responsible for preventing the lockdown?

    I know one person didn't do it all but the one name that keeps coming up in protecting FM/FM, including from the regulation GWB proposed is Barney Fwanks. Other then Chris Dodd, who do you think is responsible?

    Posted By: SamCogar (6:53am 11-02-2009)
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    You're joking, right? They're "done in"? No success at all? No hope? How did Harlem and Bed-Stuy turn things around with the yoke of socialism dragging them down?

    And Harry K, has Harlem and Bed-Stuy turned something around in the past 30 years that I haven’t heard about?

    The last time I was in Harlem I was told ……. “Don’t stop the car even if you hit or run over someone or we will never make it through here”.

    Posted By: SamCogar (6:36am 11-02-2009)
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    For example: "Congress would be better off calling for a privatization of Medicare". How would that work?

    Harry K, and you think Obama’s proposed “free health care for all” isa gonna work better than, …. to wit:

    MASSACHUSETTS HAS been lauded for its healthcare reform, but the program is a failure. Created solely to achieve universal insurance coverage, the plan does not even begin to address the other essential components of a successful healthcare system.http://www.boston.com/bostonglobe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2009/03/02/mass_healthcare_reform_is_failing_us/

    Posted By: SamCogar (6:09am 11-02-2009)
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    GREAT POST, …..NoVAMountie, …… the lefty Socialists avert their eyes and their minds at to HOW GOOD them and the poor have it now days as compared to even 30 years ago.

    Instead of just a “[/b]boney chicken in every pot[/b]” ….. they are now rallying for High Speed Internet for their PC’s, ….. wireless communications for their I-pods, Cell Phones and Blackberries ….. and free health care for “drug users” and the obese, both of which requires the afflicted to expend a lot of money to exacerbate said conditions.

    Posted By: Harry Kawasaki (11:47pm 11-01-2009)
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    "he requested stricter regulations for the banking industry on September 11, 2003"

    No he didn't. He wanted a new bureaucracy to oversee Fannie/Freddie when he should've had the Fed and Treasury clamping down on derivatives: http://tinyurl.com/yfqzchb

    And meet Brooksley Born who predicted it like Nostradamus and tried to stop it, but was marginalized and bullied. http://tinyurl.com/ylm8b2n

    "African Americans survived 500 years of slavery only to be done in by government entitlement programs"

    You're joking, right? They're "done in"? No success at all? No hope? How did Harlem and Bed-Stuy turn things around with the yoke of socialism dragging them down?

    Again, what would those places look like with no options for feeding children or housing or clothing vouchers?

    All it would take is one of the $60 billion lost to fraud to stop the vast majority of it, but private insurance cannot make a profit from insuring everyone.

    Posted By: AaronS (7:09pm 11-01-2009)
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    And both of our financial catastrophes since have been due to little and lax regulation.

    And whose fault is that? GWB? I guess the fact that he requested stricter regulations for the banking industry on September 11, 2003 and Barney Frank saw no need for it has no bearing, right?

    Have you been to parts of Brooklyn or Chicago? Over the Rhine in Cincinnati? West Philly, West Cleveland or East St. Louis?

    Do you know anything about government welfare programs that punish single mothers who want to work by taking their check, health insurance, rent subsidy, utility subsidy and child care support?

    Can you explain how African Americans survived 500 years of slavery only to be done in by government entitlement programs? There's nothing dogmatic about it. If you can't see it perhaps you should open your eyes.

    As for Medicare, try taking a look at last weeks 60 minutes segment on Medicare. If you're not for privatization then, you're a Marxist plain and simple.

    Posted By: smarbap (2:59pm 11-01-2009)
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    The culmination of this exploitation of labor, outsourcing of jobs, taxing only wages and salaries is that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

    The rich get richer because they keep doing that which makes them rich; ditto for the poor. Both get what they deserve.

    Use the power of government regulations and trade unionism to ensure that [businesses] pay a living wage . . . tax the few rich and spend, invest, redistribute and regulate for . . . the benefit of the rest of this nation's family.

    Define "living wage". The "few rich" (top 1% of income earners) already pay 40.42% of all income tax collected. In sharp contrast, the bottom 50% of income earners pay just 2.89% of all income tax collected. tinyurl.com/5fyqqt

    . . . [corporate capitalism] will exhaust the earth's resources . . .

    Nonsense! Thanks to those evil corporations, we have discovered more resources that will provide our needs for hundreds of years to come.

    Posted By: Harry Kawasaki (1:01pm 11-01-2009)
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    "this country hasn't had unregulated capitalism in well over 100 years"

    And both of our financial catastrophes since have been due to little and lax regulation.

    "Where socialism is forced, we see death, destruction, despair and misery, of that there is no mistake"

    You keep saying that but you don't prove it. Where, exactly, has all of this been happening? The inner-cities? What would they look like if not for entitlement programs? Why was a WV coal miner the first in the nation to receive food stamps in the early 60's if extractive industry and capitalism is the cure for all ills?

    All you're doing is repeating dogma with no thought as to the details. For example: "Congress would be better off calling for a privatization of Medicare". How would that work? Would there be the private industry version of death panels known as "pre-existing condition" and rescission in privatized Medicare?

    Details, not dogma.

    Posted By: J.Bradley (12:47am 11-01-2009)
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    It's possible that the genetic age or discovery of some untold source of wealth or development could trump all of this. But the human cycle will ultimately maintain the balance.

    Posted By: J.Bradley (12:43am 11-01-2009)
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    Our democracy and capitalism requires constant vigilance to be maintained. Tyrannies, monarchies and feudalism are ALL a lot older than our system. If you think our system will go on, ad infinitum, you're naively dreaming. Balances shift one way and then another to be maintained. The lower socio-economic classes ARE INDEED better off than the PAST, but the standard is NOW. If the lower classes revert to a standard of living from the past, the upper classes will have to go back too. They're tied to the lower classes whether they like it or not. If they rise higher than the CURRENT standard of lower-class living will allow, somewhere along the line, social/political pressures will correct it. The lower classes WILL NOT LIE DOWN AND TAKE IT. The simple fact is they OUTNUMBER the higher class. The higher class either has to have - AND KEEP HAVING - control of UNTOLD wealth to KEEP the CURRENT lower class higher than the past or they're simply gonna' have to give up some portion.

    Posted By: AaronS (12:09am 11-01-2009)
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    What you fail to mention Harry is that this country hasn't had unregulated capitalism in well over 100 years.

    Where capitalism is allowed to grow and flourish, we see tremendous growth and prosperity.

    Where socialism is forced, we see death, destruction, despair and misery, of that there is no mistake.

    The left touts programs like Medicare as successful but they fail to mention simple facts like that program loses as much as $60 Million dollars a year to graft, corruption, mismanagement, theft and fraud, has a $40plus trillion dollar unfunded liability and has a trust fund that will be exhausted in less then 10 years.

    What’s more telling is that at the same time, health insurance companies are accused of being ‘greedy’ even though they maintain a mere 2.2% profit margin.

    I agree with the Daily Mail short takes. Congress would be better off calling for a privatization of Medicare, aka Capitalism and eliminating the public option, aka Marxism.

    Posted By: Harry Kawasaki (11:36am 11-01-2009)
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    OK, NoVAMountie, reconcile "Instead, compare the lives of the poor today to the poor of the previous generations. Our forefathers would be amazed"

    and

    "EVERYWHERE socialism/communism/Marxism has ever been tried; it has failed miserably including right her in the United States of America".

    Wouldn't you agree that the socialist programs of the War on Poverty and Welfare and Food Stamps "caloric intake, access to information, number of showers per day, etc..."?

    Conservatives love to proclaim the War on Poverty a failure, yet use our poor's higher standard of living as an example of the successes of capitalism.

    I wouldn't have put it exactly as Mann did, but unregulated capitalism and pure communism end up at the exact same place.

    Posted By: Harry Kawasaki (11:21am 11-01-2009)
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    40.833 ft would be the circumference of a tree that's 13 ft in diameter. I like Pi!

    If I was King of America, the following would be law:

    -All CEO's base pay would be $100k/yr with incremental bonuses tied to overall profit.

    -Political campaigns would be subject to libel laws.

    -Congressional districts would follow existing county borders and be the shortest line possible.

    -The CEO's and boards of directors of corporations that set up bogey p.o. boxes in places like Bermuda (I'm looking at you Stanley Tools) would have to move there and let those countries fight their wars, pave their roads, build their schools, etc...

    -And last, but certainly not least, there would be a law that required anyone who calls themselves a Christian to be able to recite the Beatitudes before continuing on with what they were saying.

    Posted By: NoVAMountie (10:36am 11-01-2009)
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    Actually, the "problem" with capitalism is that it creates such prosperity and improves the lives of so many people that the people slowly take it for granted. In so many ways, Americans (including West Virginians) are richer and better off than ever before.

    Rather than appreciating how far we've come, we focus on the disparity of the "haves" and the "have-nots." But that's the wrong comparison. Instead, compare the lives of the poor today to the poor of the previous generations. Our forefathers would be amazed.

    In so many basic and fundamental ways - caloric intake, access to information, number of showers per day, etc. - the rich and the poor are becoming more equal. Rather than blaming capitalism for all the world's woes, the author should consider how America came to become the greatest economic superpower the earth has ever seen - property rights, economic freedom, and a strong, apolitical legal system.

    Mr. Mann wants to kill the goose that laid the golden egg.

    Posted By: AaronS (10:24am 11-01-2009)
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    It would have been easier to copy and paste The Communist Manifesto because in a nutshell, that's all this tripe is.

    What Comrade Mann doesn't tell the readers is that EVERYWHERE socialism/communism/Marxism has ever been tried; it has failed miserably including right her in the United States of America. All one has to do is go to any inner city to witness the destruction, dismay, and poverty that is brought on by Marxist policies.

    Posted By: gmhoover (8:48am 11-01-2009)
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    Nice fairy tale Mr. Mann. You left out the part where the government decides which banks, auto makers, etc are too big to fail. You also leave out the part where our government decides who the winners and loosers are.

    Posted By: SamCogar (4:47am 11-01-2009)
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    But capitalists had the last word. With the value created by laborers, capitalists bought machinery that superannuated labor and reduced labor's ranks from 125,000 miners to 12,000. The machines produce as much coal as the 125,000 miners did.

    YUP, and the capitalist bought “robotic” machinery that has superannuated labor and prevented labor's ranks from tripling or quadrupling. Those “robotic” machines on the assembly lines now help the 223,000+- auto workers produce 3 to 4 times the automobiles for sale to the public that can afford to buy them.

    So, let the anti-Capitalists (Socialists) take the machinery out of the workplace and hire an additional 113,000 coal miners and an additional 800,000+- auto workers and then tell me how may people can afford to pay their electric bills or buy a new vehicle.

    And Perry Mann has a Lawyering Degree???????????

    Posted By: barbarian (1:12am 11-01-2009)
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    Oh! Perry,rite aid sells ex-lax get some and feel better soon!

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