October 30, 2009
Mountaintop removal mining protests going national
MORGANTOWN, W.Va. -- Activists with Mountain Justice, Rainforest Action Network and other groups planned protests at Environmental Protection Agency headquarters and across the country Friday to demand the end of mountaintop removal mining in Appalachia.
Post a Comment
YOU MUST FOLLOW THESE RULES TO POST A COMMENT:
Keep it clean. Comments that are obscene, sexually explicit, racist or offensive will be removed. If you wouldn’t say it to your mother, don’t post it here.
Be civil. Don’t threaten to hurt anyone. Personal attacks, insults or harassment of any kind are subject to removal.
Be truthful. Don’t lie about a situation or person.
Keep it brief. Keep your comment to one post. Redundant or multiple posts in a row aren’t allowed.
Stay on task. Stick to the topics relevant to the story and discussion.
Let us know about offensive comments. Click the “Report Abuse” button if you think a comment is against the rules.
Advertisement - Your ad here
A name you have know and trusted for over 60 years for honesty, quality and fair prices.
The own...
in Retail
Advertisement - Your ad here
There are plenty opportunities in So WV. I just don't know what they are. There are good paying jobs to replace the coal jobs. No one is able to find them. How can there be so much contridiction of what some say verses what they are willing to do/produce?
They want to come to the aid ov WVians by removing jobs and economic potential with positive thoughts that will sustain everyone who is willing to think as they do. This is a lovely world that they dream of....but, are they lost in reality?
Well now wvern, why don’t you talk that large corporation into relocating to southern WV if you think there is great opportunities down there. Betcha they could build a nice looking corporate office on the side of one of those mountains. You do like mountain climbing to get to work, don’tja?
“[i]Possibilities include technology, tourism, healthcare, education, engineering, law enforcement, banking, etc.“[i]
Such idiocy. You might as well have included space exploration and growing orange juice.
“[i]There was a time when miners made up 2/3rds of the work force in southern WV. “[i]
Well “DUH”, when 100,000 miners lost their jobs due to mechanization the State lost 200,000 population. The miners left and the service people signed up for welfare.
wvern, tell us oh knowledgeable one, ….. why is it that YOU have not already created a few hundred of those brighter, cleaner, pride-worthy jobs in southern West Virginia?
wvern, if it is so easy to do then JUST DO IT.
DON’T just be “talking the talk”, …….. “WALK THE WALK”.
Prove to us that you are not just another barstool blather’er.
And this info:
Coal provided 98.3 percent of West Virginia’s
electric power generation in 2008.
http://www.nma.org/pdf/americas_power_states/wv.pdf
So to this dumb hillbilly’s thinking - if you do away with mining you start a domino effect -- less jobs, less taxes, less money for services, teachers, law enforcement etc…the more folks hit the hillbilly highway & the more economically distressed the region becomes. Our state needs to use all it’s resources to stay out of the red & take care of our citizens.
and tell us how many towns,business',and others would survive that kind of thinking?apparently were aren't the only blind and misinformed people.not only are the miners employed by these sites,but a lot of other business' would not survive if these mines just shut down.none of your GREEN jobs would allow these business' to survive.so now your talking devastation to these places,so where is that selfish?misinformed can go with both sides,and blind arrogance comes to both sides of this also,so tell us more.
Wednesday November 4, 2009
State predicts $100 million budget shortfall
CHARLESTON, W.Va. -- Lagging tax revenues are threatening West Virginia state government with a budget deficit,
http://dailymail.com/News/statenews/200911030815
Actually the number of direct mining jobs is closer to 3% of WV’s workforce & when you throw in indirect jobs the number rises to over 11%.
According to this op-ed:
http://www.wvcoal.com/news/latest-news/1284-mountaintop-mining-op-ed.html
"A quarter of West Virginia's 55 counties derive more than 40 percent of their annual budget from surface mining; last year alone, one coal company paid more than $45 million in state taxes. Teachers, health care professionals, law enforcement officers and other public servants face job losses if coal revenue disappears."
Why is that?
And no one said hardwood deforestation was the only objection to MTR. I merely pointed out that your implication that it was no big deal because "trees grow back" doesn't reflect the opinion of knowledgeable environmentalist.
Coal is not the end all to WV's economy. Without the financial contributions of strip mining, this state will survive. Only selfish motives, misinformation, skewed data, or blind arrogance would lead supporters to declare otherwise.
and you work in a place that does not use anything that has been linked to polution,do you wvern?
You are offended by all of these perils that are about to befall you because of coal. But one of your prior comments was that it didn't affect you as all the big coal in your area had been mined. Where do you live that you are exposed to all these terrible things? Do you live in an area that is negatively impacted by coal, or is this just another "cause" you have joined?
If you take coal out of parts of WV, you've got to have something to replace it or there's not going to be people thus no need for education, law enforcement, banks, healthcare ect. Tourism is about all you have and that simply isn't going to provide revenue to run the economy, much less provide taxes need for public services.
But then considering you showed your ignorance in your response to DCEEE and Mustang, I'm not surprised with your answers to me.
The biggest problem most environmentalists have with MTR is the destruction of hardwoods in the forest, which are critical to the eco-system and those trees just don't grow back.
And if you can't provide something that PROVES, the destruction is 'irreversible' then you're just blowing smoke.
What don't you take some time and see if you can figure out what you're talking about and try again.
DCEEE: Trees grow back much faster than mountains. I'm not fighting M.T.R. to save trees. The tree-hugger label is simply a losing faction's feeble attempt to demean dissidents with noble ideals. There's more at stake here than our forests.
Mustang: As a state, we'd probably be better off if stripminers stayed home on AFDC. At least the progression of irreversible destruction would end.
Fact: Coal is not our state's only life blood. Hasn't been in a long time.
aarons,on the welfare line.i have asked ken ward and others that are opposed to coal,mtr or otherwise,to post those green jobs they keep talking about and so far,not one has been posted.
And what are those jobs wvern?
How many large corporations have you worked for wvern? I worked for one for a number of years and in so, attended many seminars and training sessions in which many issues were discussed including environmenal. I've also delt with government agencies and once they come after you, often times the cheapest thing to do is to pay the fine they request. Your statement that they wouldn't have paid were they not guilty is wrong.
By the way, your fair share of taxes will neverrecoup or restore the damages already created by your industry.
www.supportwvcoal.com
Thanks to new energy technologies and ecologically open-eyed citizens, support for this abusive industry declines more each day.
The urgent push for mountain top removal is only the latest scheme to maximize production and profits before local residents come to realize the true, long-term costs. Big coal knows their end is in sight. So now, they want to cash in as much as possible before they are shown the door.
Our so-called proud mining tradition will soon be little more than a barbaric chapter of this state's history. Ravaging our land on the cheap for quick cash, only to abandon acid-seeping wounds and scars will finally stop forever.
Once big coal's gone, our people will be forced to acknowledge there is and always was life and jobs after coal. Free of this antiquated, irresponsible, and destructive industry, we can pioneer a brighter, cleaner, pride-worthy future for subsequent generations.
The industry wants us to forget the abomination of 1,600+ abandoned WV coal mines that constantly leach acid into our streams. They need for us to overlook the barren scars on our landscape. They hope we will ignore their lifeless sludge ponds perched above our communities.
Coal supporters would have us believe that their labor jobs are more valuable than any remaining pristine landscape.
A large corporation like Massey would never pay $20 million in penalties if they were innocent, or only guilty of minimal infractions. They paid because they knew that once again they were caught red-handed repeating their tradition of blatant environmental abuse.
informed citizen, you should really ask Teddy OC how many dozens of times he has violated the Clean Water Act and has never been fined for doing those dastardly deed.
And NO, I am not joking. If you check the details of the Clean Water Act you will find it covers every square inch of ground in West Virginia. And if one does anything anywhere that contributes to the run-off or leeching of impurities from any drainage area into any river, stream or creek in West Virginia then said perpetrator is guilty of violating the Clean Water Act. It is actually illegal to install drainage pipes on property that is swampy, wet or where rain or snow melt infrequently collects.
The EPA and DNR could write tens of thousands of CWA citations iffen they wanted to.
(Cont: Post #2)
4GOD, do you think the females that made those bras were going to spend $20 to $25 to purchase one? NOT ON YOUR LIFE, they bought the $8 to $12 IMPORTS. Thus that Maiden Form Bra plant closed its doors and moved to Mexico for the same reasons that hundreds of thousands of other jobs in the US have been eliminated and moved off-shore. The production costs to produce an item in the US has increased to such a point that the public either can’t afford to, or refuses to, purchase said at retail prices.
And as each day goes by, government gets bigger, the ranks of the “troughfeeders” keep increasing, government services keep expanding and thus the demands for more tax monies to fund their wastefulness increases proportionally. And the employees of all the above mentioned entities keep demanding and getting higher wages and more and better entitlements. Thus, said ….
(Cont: Post #3)
Well I did follow this link Teddy OC. You are most decidedly a nutjob.
decree link:
http://www.epa.gov/compliance/resources/decrees/civil/cwa/massey-cd.pdf
WV code on quarry mining:
http://www.legis.state.wv.us/WVCODE/22/code/WVC%2022%20%20-%20%204%20%20-%20%20%205%20%20.htm
Wow - what a weird site - has about the same info as you present here LOL ;-):
http://www.wvablue.com/user/One%20Citizen
You should drop this argument Teddy OC. You're on the wrong side of history on this one. While there are certainly growing pains as automation replaces manual labor, society has voted overwhelmingly again and again to increase the standard of living through the increased productivity made possible by technology.
But you have plenty of other arguments - MTR is ugly, it's illegal, God doesn't like it, it creates poverty, it causes cancer, ad infinitum ad nauseum.
Stick with your strengths.
Massey did agree to pay a very large penalty ($20 million) in a court case where the EPA alleged that Massey facilties had violated the clean water act thousands of times. I'd like more info on that, but in lieu of more information, I'll just post a link to the consent decree & others can read the info. In that decree -- Massey "Defendants do not admit any liability to the United States arising out ofthe transactions or occurrences alleged in the Complaint.
4. TheParties recognize, and the Court by entering this ConsentDecree finds, that this Consent Decree has been negotiated by the Parties in good faith andshall avoid litigation between the Parties and that this Consent Decree is fair, reasonable, and in the public interest."
Blasting 600 to 800 vertical feet away is not "ridge top", nor is it even "mountaintop removal". What's being done is a form of quarry mining, which is illegal under current law. The fact is that it has always been illegal to issue permits for such destruction but the Bush Administration's Department of Interior encouraged the Office of Surface Mines and the WV DEP to permit it even as deep miners have been laid off in record numbers
For example Massey and its subsidiaries violated their Clean Water Act Permits 4,600 times between 2000 and 2006. Although SMCRA calls for the withholding of permits until those violations were remediated, the WV DEP continued issuing permits for years. As a result, rural communities wells have been poisoned even as the documented number of birth defects across our coalfields are on the rise.
One of the benefits you failed to mention re coal exports would be the wages earned and employment provided while mining that coal for export. You further suggest those exports do not cover the cost of infrastructure,environmental cleanup, longterm healthcare to others.
Are you not really suggesting that mining and selling coal is a losing venture? In total, that is an unsubstantiated argument by any reasonable person. Or, are you suggesting that WV borders should be closed and the population be self sustaining? Altho unrealistic, WV is probably one of the few states that could survive closed borders.
4, do you think Green would be better for WV and coal should be left in the ground? Do you see that as a posibility currently? Long term? Where should WV economy be directed?
www.supportwvcoal.com
http://www.canadainternational.gc.ca/washington/commerce_can/2009/wv.aspx?lang=eng
Yet you contend privilege of coal exports. Severance, B&O and property tax are the only thing we recoup. This wouldn’t even cover the long term cost of the impact to your employees. What about your infrastructure, environmental, cleanup and long term health costs of others you impact. You cost us more in Government and legal services than we recoup.
There is also a third group that is tired of paying for your costs and coruption.
Sam, sometimes wolves are just wolves. I will pray for you on your false prophet problem.
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/state/data/wv.html
You listed the 41 billion in US exports to China. Why did you not list the 185 billion in imports?
In your 50 million dollar company example; 67 jobs of their 200 employees are related to China at 7% of the total WV exports. This results in just below 1000 WV jobs due to export to China. Extrapolating against imports; results in over 50,000 jobs eliminated (based on cost per job there vs. here). I guess you could consider raising the Chinese living level a plus, but this does not happen either. You have a positive in there somewhere?
The first group are those who don’t have anything, won’t work to get anything and don’t want anyone else to have anything but want to be given what the other person earns and get irritable and p-faced when that doesn’t happen. Thus, they can all be “bought off” and their protesting would cease.
The second group are those who have never ever really had to work for a living and: 1) they or their spouse currently either have a cushy job with great pay and entitlements or are retired from said: 2) they are clueless socialist minded people who truly believe they are serving a “great cause” and are from monied families or are being funded by radical extremists or by “con artists” who solicit million$ in donations for “a good cause”; and/or 3) those who have nothing else to do and will join in with any “cause” for fun and excitement.
“Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.”
"Updated 4/20/2006 – Despite that, last year's $41.8 billion in U.S. exports to China
Companies prospering by exporting to China run the gamut from hardwood lumber suppliers to manufacturers of sophisticated coal-mining equipment.
The impact of China's global shopping spree is being felt even in tiny Poca, W.Va., population 1,024. At Kanawha Scales & Systems, Chinese orders for the company's sophisticated coal-loading machines have grown to about one-third of the company's roughly $50 million in annual revenue." http://www.usatoday.com/money/world/2006-04-19-china-exports-usat_x.htm
I think the flow went something like this:
Mustang Sally made a typo when she wrote:
"Also keep in mind that not everyone is BLESSED enough to be able to afford an education... that doesn't make them ignorany hillbillies."
Nanette picked up on the typo and Nanette wrote:
"Ignorany" hillbillies exist because they have always been able to quit school and get a job in the mines or get their CDLs and make good money driving coal trucks.
So therefore - it was Nanette calling “names” and putting down WV folks who quit school, but nonetheless still go to work, even if it’s in the mines or getting CDL’s to drive a truck.
Nanette & usually the other anti-MTR folks who call names and do the put-downs.
“."Ignorany" hillbillies exist because they have always been able to quit school and get a job in the mines or get their CDLs ”
Since you can't spell - the word is ignorant and hillbillies are listed in the dictionary as Mich. Farmers. There are uneducated people by choice in every single city and state in this country so don't single out WV as what you apparently are trying to convey as the only state who has this problem. A large part of the high school dropouts are black. Alabama only has a 29% high school graduation rate and it's predominately black. MS, GA and LA aren't far behind. This post is supposed to be about saving the state of WV, not bashing all of it's residents because you like calling people names. So, if you're not a West Virginian who loves his state then go live somewhere else. If you're not from WV at all, go talk about someone else.
Abolition of MTR will destroy jobs and and severely impact many communities and our state's tax revenues. This is also true - one cannot argue against this point.
What our arguments boil down to is the severity of impact.
With that in mind, I think it needs to be said that you anti-MTR terrorists are gang-raping WV's economy.
http://www.usace.army.mil/CECW/Documents/cecwo/reg/mou/mou_final_mtm.pdf
Here are the proposed changes to NWP 21:
http://www.usace.army.mil/CEPA/NEWS/Pages/090715Permit21.aspx
There seems to be a perceived thought that a permit of any type allows variances in CWA and CAA. IT DOES NOT. The permit only shows that the company thought through the impact and has plans to limit risk. These plans are to be reviewed by various agencies (or their guidance) for justification. Has this happened? NO. Does it create privilege to vary from the law? NO.
“Look how much coal helps WV”. The industry as a whole helps WV, this was never in question. But 70% of the product is not used in WV. Should the citizens of WV be impacted by the extraction practices that support others? We also use 38 million tons to create electricity and send 60% percent of it to other states. Should we endure the environmental stress for this also? Yet the industry you are supporting applies negative impact to the electric generation companies:
http://www.cad.state.wv.us/090177RedactedOxleyDirect.pdf
The sad truth; most imports or pieces come from China. They utilize very few of our imports (even as a nation). Not a good thing, just a statement of fact.
Exports are a good, but at what cost?
Which nurtured a mindset of “Why work, the State will take care of all my needs”.
And their children quickly learned, ….. birth a kid or two or three and you are on the “gravy train” of free school lunches, free food, free medical and dental, free condoms, free college education, free baby setting, travel expenses, free money at tax time even though you don’t work, free housing and utilities, free, free, free and the list goes on.
And iffen you wanna “burn out” part of your mind or body by being a “dope head” …. go for it. The State will pay your medical bills, rehabilitation bills and put you on Disability with all the associated entitlements of a monthly check, medical benefits, housing, etc., etc.
4GOD, why don’t you look around your house and neighborhood and make a list of all the items you see that is not made in and/or imported from another state or country that was NOT manufactured via use of coal, gas, timber and/or electricity exported out of West Virginia.
4GOD, if you and your like minded terminate all the EXPORTS out of WV, ….. will all of you also be happy if [b]all the other states terminate all their EXPORTS into WV?
I await your answer. And please, no sermon, piffle, tripe or BS for an answer. Just a simple “YES” or ”NO” will suffice.
OH, and include your list of items also. I’m positive it will be a short one.
wvern, and the quality of education the students receive is at the bottom of 50 states.
“You'd surely admit, the odds of a teacher having investment savvy are better than the odds for a less educated laborer. ”
GIMME A BREAK, the pitiful state of the TDC makes your comment laughable.
“MTR is just another variation of strip mining.”
And so is strip malls, shopping centers and road building.
“Thousands of residents along the tributaries of the lower Cheat, Middle Fork, and many other WV streams can attest to the devastation. Learn from the past,”
Yes, get smart, don’t rebuild in a 5 year flood plain.
“The industry is irresponsible and has never yet generated nor left behind prosperity for our state, but rather only poison, poverty, and disfigurement. ”
YUP, 80+ years of Democrat mismanagement.
Uh huh, when those “spiritual serpents” getsa hold of yer mind dey are really hard to shake loose.
But to those evaluating future MTR projects, learn from yesterday and protect your community:
Don't let the industry distance itself from sins of their past.
Don't fall for deceptive marketing and well-financed lobbying efforts.
Recognize there's no giant pot of gold behind MTR, only temporary labor jobs, followed by orange creeks flowing from barren plains of overburden where forested mountains once stood.
Once the companies grab their profits, they will surely abandon an enduring mess.
Then, industry lobbyists (seeking new permits) will blame the muck on economic downturns, fluctuating demand, misspent funds, lapses in oversight, EPA loopholes, or anyone else they can blame.
Ignore history at your own peril.
http://www.dailymail.com/home/polls/200710310115
cannot be used as any indicator of how many people voted about mountaintop mining since the poll can be manipulated by clearing "cookies" & using different browsers. Try it - you can vote mulitple times in Internet Explorer (clear cookies) or use Firefox - close out the browser, go back again & VOTE again. Useless indicator.
If the pols would get a little bit of intelligence, they should realize that we have got to export more than we import to get some relief in our economy. The thing that we can export is natural resources. Coal, oil and gas exports could build our economy, provide jobs and generate a positive cash flow. Not a hard decision.
But there is one group in this country that does not want to produce enough to export. That group is demanding no local production. The result is that we export our money to OPEC to purchase oil that we could produce within US. Natural gas is deemed to be plentiful enough to produce all we can consume and have enough left to export. But, Pelosi/Reid/Obama have said we will not compete. Conservationist win at polls and US is broke????
Individual Permit - that's what Arch did for Spruce No 1. We know how well that worked out.
But that was not even close to an answer to my question.
I have been saying on these threads since I first appeared over a month ago that, since your numbers are so small, you are by definition radical extremists. Still no one has challenged me on that point.
[/i]
I'm confused. If MTR, a subset of surface mining, is allowed under the Surface Mining Control & Reclamation Act of 1977, how's it possible that NWP 21 existed before MTR was conceived?
Appalachian Voices states:
Mountaintop removal is a relatively new type of coal mining that began in Appalachia in the 1970s as an extension of conventional strip mining techniques.
http://www.appvoices.org/index.php?/site/mtr_overview/
Asked someone & was told that in the olden days of permitting (LOL) that Corps of Engineers was only involved in permitting if it involved navigable streams. I did find that NWP 21 was first issued in 1982.
Guess this is part of the mining industry's complaint about the ever rules..
Yet VERY FEW of them seemed worked up about it. I have been given this impression by their persistently low turnout at your rallies and their near absence at the recent hearings on NWP 21. What can you say in response? The 77% "against" in that Daily Mail poll you guys love to quote so much? I'd say the fact that they continue to elect politicians "on the take" from coal companies, as you charge, indicates that MTR is a very low priority for them.
What say you?
There are many of these that only exist because of MTR, yet you are trying to shut them down.
http://www.canadainternational.gc.ca/washington/commerce_can/2008/wv.aspx?lang=eng
Keeping the lights on is critical. Thanks Rational for reeling me back in. Just hard to justify exports at lower contract price – freight than local power contracts. But these issues should be self correcting soon. As Rational points, I will end up hurting the entire industry if not careful. Not the intent.
Businesses that execute with ethics should be and are cherished.
When did we start locking up citizens for having bad morals? And who the heck here would contend that "business has no moral obligation"? Whoever said that, please stop it - you're not helping our side.
4GOD, are we going to start running around in circles again?.
"Coal production increased by 2.2 percent, or 24.8 million short tons from the 2007 level to reach a record level of 1,171.5 million short tons."
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/coal/page/special/feature.html
So WV exports electricty by sale of coal? That's good isn't it - for jobs & state taxes?
How much WV coal (since you seem to have the statistics) is exported out of country for consumption and out-of-state to power plants & industries? I kinda think of export & looking at it as a "bad" thing if it's going out-of-country (well, not really, a sale is a sale when thinking of $$. I don't mind exports going to our neighboring states to produce electricity. WV can share it's "wealth" even if it is just "coal".
Now, I'll ask again - where's your cite for 70% of surface coal going for export in 200
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/coal/page/acr/table26.html
Our industrial utilization was 1 million tons (next column). I will give you 40 million tons. We produced 153 million tons.
60 million tons going over sea’s.
http://www.nytimes.com/imagepages/2008/03/19/business/20080319_COAL_GRAPHIC.html
Some excerpts from the link:
Surface mining is used to produce most of the coal in the United States because it is less expensive than underground mining.
Almost 93% of the coal used in the United States is used for generating electricity. Except for a small amount of exports, the rest of the coal is used as a basic energy source in many industries including steel, cement, and paper.
West Virginia is the largest coal-producing State in the region, and the second largest coal-producing State in the United States.
Please visit the above link for much more information.
WV teachers' average wages have long remained among the bottom 3 states in the US. You'd surely admit, the odds of a teacher having investment savvy are better than the odds for a less educated laborer.
You quote: "A 4 year lefty liberal College education only make for?"
Answer: Someone that would never make the argument that "people never address the real and proven environmental realities of the devastation of MTR.”
MTR is just another variation of strip mining. Thousands of residents along the tributaries of the lower Cheat, Middle Fork, and many other WV streams can attest to the devastation. Learn from the past(with or without teachers), strip mining / MTR irrevocably destroys the irreplaceable. The industry is irresponsible and has never yet generated nor left behind prosperity for our state, but rather only poison, poverty, and disfigurement.
Do you have a for your information?
Maybe someone in DC or LA or NY did get a cheap TV from it.
Morality and business are explicitly complementary. You contend that business has no moral obligation. I content we lock citizens up for this, why would business be any more privileged? Those businesses that execute ethically are very cherished and complementary.
I have also lived in coal country when everyone who wanted work had mining related jobs at pay that exceeded state average. Those who got into the ownership area made some money in some cases. The laborer made good money and provided for his family pretty well. A few are injured and some even killed doing a job they enjoyed. There are even some who faked injury and have received a check.
Now there is a choice. Close the industry and put the residents on welfare or a one way ticket to some place where they can make a bare existance. OR, allow the men to work and the industry to flourish and families can stay together with good family income.
I have seen both ends of the spectrum
You'r talking about "social justice" again, aren't you?
"What I have in mind is not an end to MTR. But how MTR can be lived with."
There I go again - too easily slighted.
That would be where you're wrong. It turns the lights on.
An End To Mountaintop Removal Mining?
By Debra McCown | Reporter / Bristol Herald Courier
Published: August 11, 2008
http://www2.tricities.com/tri/news/local/article/an_end_to_mountaintop_removal_mining/12545/text goes heretext goes heretext goes here
An End To Mountaintop Removal Mining?
By Debra McCown | Reporter / Bristol Herald Courier
Published: August 11, 2008
http://www2.tricities.com/tri/news/local/article/an_end_to_mountaintop_removal_mining/12545/text goes heretext goes heretext goes here
The stated goal of the actitvists is to stop MTR, not merely to make sure it is regulated & conducted to current laws & regs - Matt Wasson "“I’m saying we’re going to have it stopped by the end of next year ... the end of 2009.” and pins his hopes on court appeals & a new pres.
BTW - I think I've seen many of Wasson's post on Ken Ward's Coal Tattoo blog, while I'm blocked from saying anything. Am I insulting? calling names? or just providing a differing view?
[url]http://www2.tricities.com/tri/news/local/article/an_end_to_mountaintop_removal_mining/1254
It is never a good practice to take up serpents; physically or spiritually. In many cases the serpent has much more control of the situation than perceived. Remember he took a third of the minion with him. Anyone who thinks they have the power to stand against him alone is a fool. But GOD is always there to balance the scales; until HE decides to throw the scales away. Then where do you want to be? One of the weights HE takes off before he throws the remaining evil away; or still left on the scales?
If you omit the potable drinking water, waste disposal and good roads then the ghettos of this Nation’s Capitol, Detroit, Los Angeles, New York, Philadelphia, etc. have none of those either.
4GOD’s statement therefore must be that since those Cities have none of those without MTR'ing then MTR’ing in Appalachia must still be faulted for said problems in said Cities.
“They shall take up serpents and ….. “
Rational, I assume the above was intentional satire.
wvern, and just how many college educated Teachers in WV do you think you can find that has investment savvy?
Do ya wanna talk about the Teeachers that averages $40,000+- per year for 180- days on the job and are still always crying “poor mouth” and wanting a raise in pay?
A 4 year lefty liberal College education only make for ......???.....:)
"Substituting correlation for causation can support many an argument."
Rational, the point is: what are the human costs? It is not a pro or con, directly, on MTR. If there is a substantial economic benefit from mineral extraction which is highly destructive to the surrounding environment, and effect people in the surrounding communities in a substantial way, than should the coal operators have an obligation to give greater financial support to the surrounding communities? Well, there are two possibilities as to why not. It is either outright greed. Or, there is not enough money made to support the surrounding communities in mitigating the negative effects. I understand morality and business are not usually complimentary. What I have in mind is not an end to MTR. But how MTR can be lived with.
The forest where I learned to hunt as a child is now a barren, abandoned, poorly reclaimed strip mine with a sludge pond at one end. For years, I lived alongside a WV river that was virtually devoid of fish or aquatic life thanks to acid mine drainage.
Still today, I often drive beside the unholy sight of a mountain stream flowing bright orange thanks to acid mine drainage.
Nothing I have written has been reiterated from liberal writings. I write from painful experience... You may be fulfilled producing the product, but your fulfillment comes at a steep cost to others.
If you want to endorse the glories of coal and MTR, you need to sell it to someone who hasn't lived up close and personal with big coal's abuses.
Surface mining operations alone provide enough energy to
power more than 25 million American homes.
“when Congress passed the Surface Mining Control and
Reclamation Act in 1977, it was their clear intent to balance environmental protection
with the energy needs of the nation and do so in a way that embraces both
requirements. These unprecedented actions have challenged this Congressional
mandate; placing the clear intent of Congress in peril.
..decision is driven by politics and not based on any tangible
concern with environmental protection. The proposal to end NWP 21 is just one more
roadblock or barrier the federal government is putting in the path of coal mining in
Appalachia.
Full text here:
http://www.coalleader.com/NEWS_RELEASE_DAN_BOWLING1-A.pdf
The same logic could be used to state that Cabell and Kanawha have limited mining but they have higher average incomes, therefore mining has minimal impact (not entirely accurate either).
Not a simple issue with few variables.
When you have a group of people who have been dependant upon welfare for three generations, this problem cannot be blamed on the people who work in the coal industry. You appear to be someone who knows nothing about the people or industry other than what some liberal has written. You make statements that you cannot justify because they are not justifiable.
Pay in the industry is good and the people working enjoy the paydays and work, and to produce a product the world needs is fulfilling. You can make all the liberal statements you desire, but the fact remains they are producing a world wide needed product. Until an alt is developed that will replace it, coal will be mined.
Your points are rarely clear, 4GOD, but if you are referring to that discussion we had a week ro so about the multiplier effect of MTR, all that census data and wage data you threw at me proved my point for me. When I conceded victory to you that was only an acknowledgment that you wore me down by having me chase you in circles.
Rational, I guess correlation for causation is just as good of a practice as unsubstantiated variant of impact (the opposite) that you use for justification.
what the matter bamsterman,couldn't argue the point made?it seems as to me when you all try to accuse people of being ignorant and uneducated this is the type of posts that follow.you comment shows it all.
Good point Mountaineer - if we remove the MTR from these communities we would certainly see a noticeable improvement in their standard of living. How does that work again?
Substituting correlation for causation can support many an argument.
http://www.wvcoalhistory.com/id15.html
"I think the people wanting the windmills should get an education first.I have not seen one windmill farm with a tree on it,most of them are on a mountain top that looks like a reclaimed strip."
Folks should look at this photo gallery -
PHOTO-GALLERY
Rape of an upland plateau
What has happened on Cefn Croes?
Throughout 2004, as the infrastructure of the wind power station was put in place, Cefn Croes was subjected to a relentless campaign of damage and destruction.
http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~hills/cc/gallery/index.htm#photos
Outside of the ecological scars that mining has left and continues leaving, we traditionally double the national average of citizens on early disability; We remain among the national leaders of welfare dependent families; And our average income has remained among the bottom 3 states in the US for decades.
Coal was discovered here in 1742 and has been mined commercially since 1810 (almost 200 years!) If there's economic prosperity wrapped up in these clouds of coal dust and carbon emissions, it would have shown up by now.
As far as college majors, how about renewable energy engineering? Our generation had the intellect to get to and from the moon, surely our educated kids are capable of creating clean energy.
I was talking about the good paying mining jobs v a college education. You suggest short-sightedness and quick cash out scheme. Then you come on with: better life for family; better choices; scraping by; fantasizing about lottery.
Actually the comparison would be: Pay tuition and board and books to good college @$20,000 per year. Mining jobs getting $60,000 & up. Cost after 4 years = $80,000 college plus $240,000 lost wages. That is $320,000 the grad is behind to start career. Or if you could keep it all to invest at 12% compound daily= Annual $40G pay.
If you really want a better life for your family, that so-called "liberal indoctrination" affords better choices than the ones available to high school grads or less. Less education can often lead to scraping by on little more than minimum wage or disability, waiting for social security at 65, and fantasizing each Wednesday and Saturday while buying lottery tickets.
MTR only leads only to poisoning the environment and irrevocably destroying the irreplaceable, in order to grab a quick buck.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/coal/page/coalnews/coalmar.html
Look at the PSC (Oxley) testimony on the link below. You can see how some of these nice companies have impacted our electricity costs in the state. This is not to say that the PSC did a good job in any form:
http://www.cad.state.wv.us/APCO090177Page.htm
I would suggest everyone read the testimony for the AEP increase above.
I would also read about how we can pay for a new plant in WV, while VA refused to (and yet will use the services). I guess the IGCC experience will help the WV coal industry:
http://www.psc.state.wv.us/scripts/orders/ViewDocument.cfm?CaseActivityID=279831&Source=Docket
http://www.scc.virginia.gov/newsrel/e_apno_08.aspx
Total costs, impact and intent are also required for industry support justification.
First, I don't want anyone to think I'm picking on one poster. I missed this thread entirely so I'm catching up and in doing so, trying to limit my responses to those statements that are idiotic.
And I see another one here.
My recommendation for you KK would be to study the different kinds of coal and the different types of mining.
Yes, it is about the dollar but then so is this paper you read. They can say they're not but in truth, if the ad revenue disappears, so do they.
What you don't understand is that not only is MTR coal competing with other forms of energy, they're also in competition with other states for capital dollars as well. Spruce is the perfect example. When the first permit was denied, they sent many of the resources meant for that mine to Wyoming. Perhaps you should study economics as well as coal.
And like it or not, we need the coal to provide electric.
That should have been $30K as in $30 thousand dollars for electric and gas.
And now to address another of your points kittykat.
Yes, MTR protesters break the law. It's called civil disobedience and it's been used effectively in many social movements, as you know, I'm sure
That's all well and good so long as you realize that civil disobedience is still illegal and you can't expect those guilty to not be punished for their crimes. That is not the case for those who oppose MTR mining.
Many on the left expect protestors to be let off with a slight slap on the wrist when in reality, those guilty of multiple crimes should be punished accordingly, don't you agree!!!
You can tell a lot about a person by their political stances. Most MTR supporters tend to be the types who can look the other way as long as they have what they need. Being a responsible steward of the Earth and it's gifts is much harder than simply turning one's head. It's expensive, it requires extra effort and also a willingness to stay informed.
If that's the case kittykat can you please explain this?
One 2000 Presidential candidate lives in a 10,000 square foot house and uses 20 times the national average in electricty and spent more then $30 for combined gas and electric while the other lives in a passive-solar house that uses Geothermal heat pumps circulate water through pipes buried 300 feet deep in the ground. These waters pass through a heat exchange system that keeps the home warm in winter and cool in summer.
Which is the former and which is the latter kittykat???
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/g/gore-bush-houses.htm
One of the things that has amazed me is the weight given to the stated need of a college education. Why does one need a college education? Why do we put ourselves thru sitting in a classroom listening to instructors attempt to indoctrinate us for 4+ years? The position the instructors are attempting to deliver is a very liberal position in most cases, IMO. The newly liberated student (free of parental patrol, but with new found money from that parent)is easily swayed as they are "broadening their horizons". We forego earnings for those college years and join the push for information while sacrificing earning a payday. Why do we elect to live in such conditions for 4+ years?
JOBS, JOBS, Jobs. So, why criticize those who accept mining jobs w/o college
I find that statement extremely funny given your expressed opinion and comments in this thread. And here are a few more that MAGNIFIES said ignorant, uneducated status of the populace, to wit:
“Before strip mining started, the number of employed coal miners in W.Va. peaked at 130,000. Since strip mining and MTR that number has shrunk to the 10,000 of today ”
“but I believe it is more than just laziness, it is ignorance at its worst. ”
“It's because of Wal-Mart that you can no longer buy a set of American made sheets in this country. ”
“Mountain Top Removal destroys streams. ”
(continued below)
“The only reason there are still poor, uneducated hillbillies in WV is strictly due to tradition and choice... ”
“."Ignorany" hillbillies exist because they have always been able to quit school and get a job in the mines or get their CDLs ”
“Do you hunt and fish within miles of an MTR site I wonder? Of course you do! And you catch great big ole fish. ”
“The only reason for MTR is money. There is no other reason to support it. ”
kittykat, and just who pays your bills, the State or the County? And is the source of your money partly from extorted tax money obtained from the hard working coal miners? What entity are you supporting to insure that you keep getting enough money to pay your bills?
kittykat, and just what does your education and skills consist of that makes you think that you understand whether or not MTR’ing poses any long term environmental effects?
And your “lean right politically” statement is hilariously laughable given the fact that the left leaning Democrats have maintained total control of WV for the past 80+ years and everything south of Clay County is overwhelmingly partisan lefty Democratic.
kittykat, and just what are your plans for those mountains that you want them protected so that you can do whatever it is that you want to do with them?
Those mountains have been here for tens of thousands of years and no one has done anything with them or used them for anything other than cutting timber and mining coal.
So, kittykat, what are your grand and glorious plans for those mountains and why haven’t you and yours been doing something with them during the past 30+ years instead of just sitting on you butt complaining?
you guys - always with the sexual metaphors.
"Also keep in mind that not everyone is BLESSED enough to be able to afford an education... that doesn't make them ignorany hillbillies."
Blessed enough to afford an education????? That is what student loans are for. Also there are grants available to low income students. That is no excuse for not getting an education. Also what about working while going to school? I know a LOT of people who worked their way through college. You can't make that kind of an excuse for not being educated.
"Ignorany" hillbillies exist because they have always been able to quit school and get a job in the mines or get their CDLs and make good money driving coal trucks. Times have changed and they have destroyed the outlook for their futures all by themselves for the simple reason they couldn't see any farther than the noses on their faces. Stop trying making excuses for these people. I know too many of them and how they think. Shamefully many are in my own family.
Also keep in mind that not everyone is BLESSED enough to be able to afford an education... that doesn't make them ignorany hillbillies.
And FYI fellow citizens of WV, There are other employment alternatives in this world than mining coal. Just because daddy did it, does not make it right. We need to stop referring to coal as "a proud tradition" and call it for what it really is: "a multi-geneneration environmental sellout."
Anyways--I've gotten completely away from my point in my original post -- You can state your opinion and talk about the facts WITHOUT attacking, demoralizing, and name calling.
The tree-huggers need to spend their energy attacking the urban sprawl taking place around urban centers and our coastal regions. No wait, they won't do that because it's too hard to take on those causes. They'd rather attack the poor uneducated hillbillies of WV.
You didn't answer any of my questions either...is it ok to destroy a mountain for roadways, malls and other developments? No one seems to feel so threatened by those things....
Do you not think that responsibly mined coal kills "our" people and damages our health? I guess MTR is the culprit for all the obeseity and heart disease too huh?? If we could only immediately stop MTR, all the disease would just dissapear.
I am pretty certain than the protestors of MTR have proven themselves to be quite the law breakers themselves. Again, all you can do is attack others
Not really. It's more like consensual sex - the mountains don't put up the slightest resistance.
Can you stop it now with the over-the-top hyperbole please?
I think these protestor are going to extremes. Most of the mountain tops that are being removed aren't even visible from main transportation routes.
No one.... NO ONE has set out just to destroy the state of WV. I can tell you that a windmill farm would be FAR less attractive than a reclaimed strip mine.
Is it ok with you to level a mountain for the use of development of roadways, malls, etc? What if mining weren't even involved??
Let's don't play the jobs card...how about electric. How do you suppose we'll keep YOUR lights on until the windmills, etc go through the design, permitting, building phase. You do realize that will take YEARS. Perhaps, you're ready to sit in the dark??
I suppose if you witnessed a gang rape, you would figure it was up to the victim to deal with it. The people from out of state are taking the responsibility for our State the people of West Virginia haven't. The mountains have to be protected from corrupt politicians, a judiciary stacked with grafters and ignorant people like you. We should all be ashamed.
www.supportwvcoal.com